Movies Serious Movie Discussion

[Bullitt68]

Maestro looks awful, haven't bothered.

I'm so sick of these music biopics. They all suck, and they're getting worse and worse.

Ferrari was unfortunately very poor, didn't bother with a review but saw it in the cinema because a mate dragged me over Christmas.

Oh, no. It took Mann nearly a decade to make another film after Blackhat, and I have no faith that he'll make another film before he dies given his pace, plus the only thing on his agenda is the retarded idea for a Heat sequel/prequel. I so want him to have one more great film for the resume. You don't need to whip up a full review, but give me the bullet points: What was wrong with Ferrari?

so by big films, you mean films directed by one of the top 5 favorite directors of every film studies frat boy ever

Ha, by "big" I mainly meant long, quasi-epic, (self-)important, getting acclaim, etc. But that also works, too

also, my condolences on Oppie. ik it probably felt like a personal betrayal committed by your boy—your #1 road dog w/ a bullet—Chris Nolan. life might seem confusing, or even pointless, since watching Oppie, but trust me, these wounds will heal over time.

This is pretty accurate. Fortunately, it wasn't a terrible film. It was just poor by Nolan standards. So it wasn't the moviegoing equivalent of the night that my heart was broken watching Cro Cop get Cro Copped by Gonzaga. But it did hurt, and I was confused, as I'd never seen Nolan drop the ball like that, yet there I was watching him fumble and have the other team run it back for a touchdown in his face.

Saw this today - on IMAX, on what looks like its last day in IMAX - and was thoroughly disappointed. A lot of what you had to say captured my sentiments, except that you seem to have liked it more than I did. I also thought that Matt Damon was BY FAR the best actor of the bunch and turned in the best performance top to bottom - followed closely by Tom Conti and Casey Affleck - while Murphy was wooden and possessed of an apparent inability to emote. He might not even make my top 10 list of the best performances delivered in the film.

But my biggest problem is that Nolan told the wrong story. He got WAY too bogged down in the proceedings, Murphy's and Downey Jr.'s, to where what should've been a simple framing device took over the fucking movie. There needed to be more of a focus on the people and from where - that is, from whom - the moral conundrums emerged. Who the fuck was Pugh's character? What was her deal, why did Murphy want to fuck her even once much less devote himself to her completely and forever, and why did she kill herself? And, beyond the most basic humanity, why should we care about her in the context of this film? Who the fuck was Blunt's character? Why was she such a terrible mother, why/when did she come back around, what was the second kid like, why did she want to fight so hard, what if anything did her testimony accomplish? Most depressing of all since I have to ask this: Who the fuck was Oppenheimer? What attracted him so much to his scientific obsessions? Why was he so intent on doing what he did? What did he do between Los Alamos and the hearings?

As for the "technical" shit, the score was a cheap Zimmer knock-off - it sounded for the majority of the time like a remix of the Inception score - the endless cuts to the goofy space garble was as retarded as watching a Stan Brakhage movie (Nolan's failed attempt to be Kubrickian à la 2001 perhaps), the jump scare style of using sound and explosions was extremely annoying and would take me out of my investment in the story and my (always failed) attempts to connect to the characters, the visual effects when his "reality" was fracturing after the bomb was contrived and stupid...

At the risk of a bad pun given the scientific subject matter, I'd call Oppenheimer a failed experiment. Nolan hasn't not hit a home run in a long fucking time, but this one stayed in the park. A thoroughly unremarkable film that I'd give no more than a C+, and that largely due to the stellar acting, not the muddled narrative or the misguided aesthetics.

Last but not least: The IMAX was a waste of money in every way. Nobody who streams this on a computer will have missed anything. That's how badly Nolan dropped the ball here.

And, FWIW, all of this comes from one of the biggest Nolan fans on this site. I expect A LOT more from Nolan, and he did NOT deliver here.

speaking of Nolan, have you posted your thoughts on Tenet here? if so, care to direct me there? the movie fascinates me, but i’m also convinced it very possibly might just straight up fucking suck. help me!

I searched and I only found two posts about it.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, it's been so long that I don't remember ever posting about Tenet. I was shocked by all of the disappointment and even hate directed at that movie. I thought that it was fucking astounding. I watched it 4 or 5 times the first week that it was available OnDemand.

My Nolan rankings would look like this:

Inception
The Dark Knight Rises
The Dark Knight
Memento
Interstellar
Tenet
The Prestige
Dunkirk
Batman Begins
Insomnia
Following

However, I would want to amend those two posts now. I was astounded by Tenet initially, but I rewatched it a few months ago and I wasn't as astounded. It's still impressive with respect to the action and the imaginative set-pieces - the highway heist/backwards car chase is the highlight of the film for me - and it has my favorite friendship in the entire Nolan canon, just a beautiful relationship between two characters - so much of Nolan's work is solitary, with characters isolated by circumstances (alone in Alaska in Insomnia, alone in your damaged brain in Memento, alone in space in Interstellar) or by choice (alone on the streets of Gotham in the Dark Knight trilogy, alone in your guilt-ridden memories in Inception, alone in your quest for greatness and revenge in The Prestige) with relationships often limited to romantic relationships (the exception being the great quasi-psychotherapist/client relationship between Cobb and Ariadne in Inception) that the John David Washington/Robert Pattinson relationship in Tenet was a welcome new wrinkle in the Nolanverse - but, like you, on my last rewatch, I wondered if it's a stupid pile of nonsense on the level of the plot. Maybe I just wasn't watching closely initially, but I was really trying to make sense of every plot point and I failed. Whether that's because the movie makes no sense - it's worth remembering that everyone on the set during the production found it so confusing to remember WTF they were filming and how it connected to the story that they needed maps and would frequently pause before shooting to go over everything to make sure everyone was on the same page - or because I suck at geometry and physics - which is entirely possible and which I'm happy to accept - I'm not sure, but the temporal Pincer movement shit just seems silly and nonsensical, but maybe I just suck at thinking non-linearly.

Whatever the case may be, in the same stretch of time that I rewatched Tenet, I also happened to rewatch The Prestige and Dunkirk - I was prepping for my annual fall term authorship class and I wanted to rewatch a few Nolans - and I'd rank them both above Tenet now. The Prestige in particular has always gotten WAY too much love from the too-cool-for-Batman-but-still-dig-Nolan crowd in my book, but even so, I've come to appreciate it a great deal more in the last couple of years and I think that it's unquestionably superior to Tenet.

 

[moreorless87]

My local actually showing Poor Things so didnt have to wait for the disk release for this kind of thing for once, i'll try to keep in relatively spoiler free beyond whats in the trailer.



Interesting to see Lanthimos shifted his style rather, The Favourite did that somewhat I I think retained a lot of the deliberately stilted dialog and the general look of his previous work plus of course it was arguably another case of strong Kubrick influence(Barry Lyndon rather than Scared Deers Shining). Here he shifts into a kind of Gilliam by Wes Anderson streampunk world not that close to anything Kubrick did(although I spose AI is somewhat whether than was Kubrick or Spielberg though who knows?) and the dialog/characters whilst still often quite knowing tends to shift more into that quirky camp rather than the previous stilted awkwardness.

Honestly I was a bit surprised how graphic it was as The Favourite felt like Lanthimos toning down the "nails on the chalkboard to middle class mores" uncomfortableness but this is choc full of sex and blood. The difference ends up being more a shift in tone, all his previous work tended to be very grim and Kubrickian were as this , graphic as it is ends up being a much "nicer" and more hopeful film. The main difference I spose is that his previous work tended to be entirely satirical including of the protagonists themselves, here I think the satire is more of the characters within the film, most obviously people trying to sell Stones Lead character the idea of "sexual emplowerment" which is really self serving but are ultimately taken down by her(whether deliberately or no).

I did wonder exactly why he went with the Steampunk look but I think it ends up being very effective as a reflection of the characters mental state as

Spoiler

A child in a womans body

, starting out in simple black and white then expanding into fantastical colours before gradually dropping back towards normality. I have to say as well whilst $35 million is big money for an arthouse film this actually looks like it cost much more than that which some incredibly elaborate Gaudi like set designs.

Will be interesting to see how well it does at the Oscars, Lanthimos does seem to have gotten "in" with Hollywood but this is a lot more graphic than almost anything that normally gets much sucess. Honestly though from what I'v seen so far this year Stone should be an absolute shoe in for best actress on merit, Defoe makes a predictably great mad scientists whilst Ruffalo is a very charming/fun cad.

 

[HenryFlower]

I'm so sick of these music biopics. They all suck, and they're getting worse and worse.

except, of course, for....

Spoiler

if you think i'm joking, try me.

This is pretty accurate. Fortunately, it wasn't a terrible film. It was just poor by Nolan standards. So it wasn't the moviegoing equivalent of the night that my heart was broken watching Cro Cop get Cro Copped by Gonzaga. But it did hurt, and I was confused, as I'd never seen Nolan drop the ball like that, yet there I was watching him fumble and have the other team run it back for a touchdown in his face.

However, I would want to amend those two posts now. I was astounded by Tenet initially, but I rewatched it a few months ago and I wasn't as astounded. It's still impressive with respect to the action and the imaginative set-pieces - the highway heist/backwards car chase is the highlight of the film for me - and it has my favorite friendship in the entire Nolan canon, just a beautiful relationship between two characters - so much of Nolan's work is solitary, with characters isolated by circumstances (alone in Alaska in Insomnia, alone in your damaged brain in Memento, alone in space in Interstellar) or by choice (alone on the streets of Gotham in the Dark Knight trilogy, alone in your guilt-ridden memories in Inception, alone in your quest for greatness and revenge in The Prestige) with relationships often limited to romantic relationships (the exception being the great quasi-psychotherapist/client relationship between Cobb and Ariadne in Inception) that the John David Washington/Robert Pattinson relationship in Tenet was a welcome new wrinkle in the Nolanverse -

i'd like to see those two get caught up in a temporbro pincer movement, if ya know what i'm sayin'



is it safe to say that Tenet may have been directed by Nolan's alter ego— C-Dawg Brolan?

but, like you, on my last rewatch, I wondered if it's a stupid pile of nonsense on the level of the plot. Maybe I just wasn't watching closely initially, but I was really trying to make sense of every plot point and I failed. Whether that's because the movie makes no sense - it's worth remembering that everyone on the set during the production found it so confusing to remember WTF they were filming and how it connected to the story that they needed maps and would frequently pause before shooting to go over everything to make sure everyone was on the same page - or because I suck at geometry and physics - which is entirely possible and which I'm happy to accept - I'm not sure, but the temporal Pincer movement shit just seems silly and nonsensical, but maybe I just suck at thinking non-linearly.

Whatever the case may be, in the same stretch of time that I rewatched Tenet, I also happened to rewatch The Prestige and Dunkirk - I was prepping for my annual fall term authorship class and I wanted to rewatch a few Nolans - and I'd rank them both above Tenet now. The Prestige in particular has always gotten WAY too much love from the too-cool-for-Batman-but-still-dig-Nolan crowd in my book, but even so, I've come to appreciate it a great deal more in the last couple of years and I think that it's unquestionably superior to Tenet.

The Prestige is still by far my least favorite Nolan movie. it grates on me worse than roadrash. even if Tenet is actually really truly a gigantic pile of dog turds that's been left out in the sun to rot & get dog turd melanoma, i would still rather watch it in its entirety just for the juicy action set pieces (Nolan's best/most thrilling by far, imo) & RPatts/JDW's bromance, instead of watching The Prestige.

 

[HenryFlower]

My local actually showing Poor Things so didnt have to wait for the disk release for this kind of thing for once, i'll try to keep in relatively spoiler free beyond whats in the trailer.



Interesting to see Lanthimos shifted his style rather, The Favourite did that somewhat I I think retained a lot of the deliberately stilted dialog and the general look of his previous work plus of course it was arguably another case of strong Kubrick influence(Barry Lyndon rather than Scared Deers Shining). Here he shifts into a kind of Gilliam by Wes Anderson streampunk world not that close to anything Kubrick did(although I spose AI is somewhat whether than was Kubrick or Spielberg though who knows?) and the dialog/characters whilst still often quite knowing tends to shift more into that quirky camp rather than the previous stilted awkwardness.

Honestly I was a bit surprised how graphic it was as The Favourite felt like Lanthimos toning down the "nails on the chalkboard to middle class mores" uncomfortableness but this is choc full of sex and blood. The difference ends up being more a shift in tone, all his previous work tended to be very grim and Kubrickian were as this , graphic as it is ends up being a much "nicer" and more hopeful film. The main difference I spose is that his previous work tended to be entirely satirical including of the protagonists themselves, here I think the satire is more of the characters within the film, most obviously people trying to sell Stones Lead character the idea of "sexual emplowerment" which is really self serving but are ultimately taken down by her(whether deliberately or no).

I did wonder exactly why he went with the Steampunk look but I think it ends up being very effective as a reflection of the characters mental state as

Spoiler

A child in a womans body

, starting out in simple black and white then expanding into fantastical colours before gradually dropping back towards normality. I have to say as well whilst $35 million is big money for an arthouse film this actually looks like it cost much more than that which some incredibly elaborate Gaudi like set designs.

Will be interesting to see how well it does at the Oscars, Lanthimos does seem to have gotten "in" with Hollywood but this is a lot more graphic than almost anything that normally gets much sucess. Honestly though from what I'v seen so far this year Stone should be an absolute shoe in for best actress on merit, Defoe makes a predictably great mad scientists whilst Ruffalo is a very charming/fun cad.

i think it’s his masterpiece, although still am not ready to admit it’s his masterpiece because that means i have to admit that it’s better than Dogtooth, even if i still currently hold Dogtooth as the Lanthimos standard. but i felt it in my bones sitting there in the theater.

also, let me just add that it has been exciting as heck to be following along Lanthimos’s career since the very beginning to now, & the beyond still yet to come—watching the metamorphosis of his filmography from greek new wave to what i believe is his true vision breaking out from his chrysalis (i doubt we get another project that feels as small or as liminally sterile as a Dogtooth, or even Sacred Deer).

 

[moreorless87]

i think it’s his masterpiece, although still am not ready to admit it’s his masterpiece because that means i have to admit that it’s better than Dogtooth, even if i still currently hold Dogtooth as the Lanthimos standard. but i felt it in my bones sitting there in the theater.

also, let me just add that it has been exciting as heck to be following along Lanthimos’s career since the very beginning to now, & the beyond still yet to come—watching the metamorphosis of his filmography from greek new wave to what i believe is his true vision breaking out from his chrysalis (i doubt we get another project that feels as small or as liminally sterile as a Dogtooth, or even Sacred Deer).

In some ways its a bit more "Hollywood" in that you have a protagonist you actually get behind morally a good deal of the time with catharsis at the end were as previously his protagonists were themselves satirical. The general content of the film though does feel like he was probably trading in The Favourite's box office to make something far more graphic that Hollywood typically does, at least in terms of sex rather than violence. It does actually seem to be doing pretty well though even so plus he's already wrapped filming his next also with Stone in it.

Maybe its just me but I felt that we'd seen a bit of a change post #metoo towards even arthouse cinema becoming a bit more conservative again after the early to mid 2010's were you had stuff like Dogtooth, Under the Skin, The Duke of Burgundy, Blue is the Warmest Colour, The Handmaiden, etc which was very graphic so its supprising to see a $30+ million Hollywood film buck that trend with so much "furious jumping" even if for the most part its not intended to be very erotic.

Wasnt sure about the Steampunk look from the trailers but again watching it I think it makes more sense as its as much a reflection of the character as it is attempting any kind of world building, does feel rather Gilliam like in that respect. Stone is I think a perfect fit for him as an actor as well so its nice to see them sticking together, something we don't see nearly as often with women.

The Prestige is still by far my least favorite Nolan movie. it grates on me worse than roadrash. even if Tenet is actually really truly a gigantic pile of dog turds that's been left out in the sun to rot & get dog turd melanoma, i would still rather watch it in its entirety just for the juicy action set pieces (Nolan's best/most thrilling by far, imo) & RPatts/JDW's bromance, instead of watching The Prestige.

I wouldnt say I massively disliked The Prestige but I'v never really understood the extreme hype it gets, to me it actually feels like Nolan's most conventional film, a book adaptation which could have been done by a hired hand, a few flourishes here and there but nothing that memorable for me. Manages to make Bowie playing Telsa boring as well which really should not be the case.

Besides the set pieces, Pattinson and the general flare of it I felt Tenet was interesting in that it avoided the typical Nolan exposition, still had some of it of course but it was willing to leave the audience in the dark for events the meaning of which we find out latter in the film.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

Is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind really that good ?

 

[moreorless87]

The only good musical bio epic this millenium...

 

[Highway99]

Walk Hard was pretty fantastic....

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I may have hated this movie even more than you because I wouldn't even credit any of the battle scenes. The only good battle sequence is the cannons on the ice scene, but the best part was lifted from Saving Private Ryan (and I even prefer the SWAT team getting tossed into the hotel pool in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles). Literally everything about Napoleon was terrible IMO.

I've hated all the "big" films of 2023. Oppenheimer stunk, Killers of the Flower Moon was dreadful, Napoleon was awful, and you couldn't pay me to watch Maestro. I'm crossing my fingers so hard for Ferrari to be good.

Word. I hated Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon, too. Both sucked.

 

[Bullitt68]

Ferrari was unfortunately very poor, didn't bother with a review but saw it in the cinema because a mate dragged me over Christmas.

Oh, no. It took Mann nearly a decade to make another film after Blackhat, and I have no faith that he'll make another film before he dies given his pace, plus the only thing on his agenda is the retarded idea for a Heat sequel/prequel. I so want him to have one more great film for the resume. You don't need to whip up a full review, but give me the bullet points: What was wrong with Ferrari?

For an update, @Rimbaud82, I saw and loved Ferrari. Not a masterpiece, but a damn fine film IMO. Driver turned in a great performance and Cruz turned in an even better one, the racing sequences were shot well (except the bad CGI moments), the Mann hallmark of obsession was treated characteristically but given an interesting wrinkle (unlike Petersen's and Pacino's cop characters in Manhunter and Heat and unlike Caan's and Cruise's criminal characters in Thief and Collateral, Driver's character isn't actually in the driver's seat [nice pun, right?] yet his obsession is interestingly all the more powerful because of that), Mann's cinematic eye is still as sharp as ever (the shot of the little boy's toy car when Cruz was walking up to the mistress' house was absolutely brilliant and devastating). I was thoroughly impressed. I'll have to watch it again and also give Blackhat a fresh viewing, but I might say that Ferrari is the best thing that Mann's done since Collateral.

So now I really want to know what you thought was wrong with Ferrari.

Is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind really that good ?

No. It's good, but I've never understood the crazy levels of love that it gets.

Word. I hated Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon, too. Both sucked.

Nice timing: After discussing Edward Scissorhands tomorrow to wrap up the previous week's course material, this week in one of my classes we will be turning our attention to Black Swan

 

[moreorless87]

Probably zero chance anyone here but me and Henry will watch it given a gay romance is a large part of the plot but saw All of Us Strangers a few days ago and it would be my pick for film of 2023 going by what I'v seen so far.



To be honest a lot of more hyped lgbt+ stuff in recent years has felt like it was trading a bit too much on merely existing but this film is superb, walks such a delicate line between down to earth drama and dreamy semi ghost story. Not giving too much away to say it involves Andrew Scotts character visiting his childhood home and somehow meeting his long dead parents which gradually links into romance in his tower block. End result actually feels very 90's Lynch to be but by way of something like Blue is the Warmest Colour in terms very realistically done drama that manages to have real weight to it.

I'm surprised actually Andrew Scott especially didnt get an Oscar push for this, he's been well respected for years but often confined more to supporting roles where as here really gets to be front and centre, Claire Foy as his mother is superb as well.

​

 

[HenryFlower]

Probably zero chance anyone here but me and Henry will watch it given a gay romance is a large part of the plot but saw All of Us Strangers a few days ago and it would be my pick for film of 2023 going by what I'v seen so far.



To be honest a lot of more hyped lgbt+ stuff in recent years has felt like it was trading a bit too much on merely existing but this film is superb, walks such a delicate line between down to earth drama and dreamy semi ghost story. Not giving too much away to say it involves Andrew Scotts character visiting his childhood home and somehow meeting his long dead parents which gradually links into romance in his tower block. End result actually feels very 90's Lynch to be but by way of something like Blue is the Warmest Colour in terms very realistically done drama that manages to have real weight to it.

I'm surprised actually Andrew Scott especially didnt get an Oscar push for this, he's been well respected for years but often confined more to supporting roles where as here really gets to be front and centre, Claire Foy as his mother is superb as well.

​

really looking forward to checking this one out. Andrew Haigh hasn’t missed yet (Weekend is especially staggering & one hell of a breakout soph feature film) & to have a Paul Mescal/Andrew Scott double-bill as your leads is legit a dream

 

[moreorless87]

really looking forward to checking this one out. Andrew Haigh hasn’t missed yet (Weekend is especially staggering & one hell of a breakout soph feature film) & to have a Paul Mescal/Andrew Scott double-bill as your leads is legit a dream

Besides the dreamy semi ghostly stuff I'm always impressed when you get a drama which manages to be played both very realistically AND really confronts its drama, seems a lot of the time it ends up a choice of one or the other and you get realistic films which only offer hints at deeper drama rather than addressing it head on.

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

Not a movie but I just watched Mindhunter recently. I thought it was really good, sad they only made 2 seasons of it. Now I'm watching that Jeffrey Dahmer show on Netflix. It's pretty good, but not quite on the same level as Mindhunter

Nice timing: After discussing Edward Scissorhands tomorrow to wrap up the previous week's course material, this week in one of my classes we will be turning our attention to Black Swan

 

[Fedorgasm]

Is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind really that good ?

Yes. I'm a sucker for writing though so a film with excellent writing makes me overlook any other flaws.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Watched Tombstone for the first time. Definitely did not get the hype.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Probably zero chance anyone here but me and Henry will watch it given a gay romance is a large part of the plot but saw All of Us Strangers a few days ago and it would be my pick for film of 2023 going by what I'v seen so far.

Dude these guys watch UFC. That's like half a dozen gay romances per fight card.

 

[moreorless87]

Dude these guys watch UFC. That's like half a dozen gay romances per fight card.

If I say Andrew Scott gets jacked in it do you think thats enough?

 

[Adamant]

@Bullitt68

You rank The Dark Knight Rises second of Nolan's filmography and the best Nolan Batman film??

 

[Bullitt68]

Not a movie but I just watched Mindhunter recently. I thought it was really good, sad they only made 2 seasons of it.

The first season was great, the second one stunk. I get why they stopped after two.

Now I'm watching that Jeffrey Dahmer show on Netflix. It's pretty good, but not quite on the same level as Mindhunter

I couldn't even watch the Dahmer one. If you're in serial killer mode, though, I'd recommend The Patient on Hulu with Steve Carrell and Domhnall Gleeson if you haven't seen it.

Watched Tombstone for the first time. Definitely did not get the hype.

That's a genuinely terrible movie. Val Kilmer and Michael Biehn turn in solid performances, but it's over-the-top cheese in the worst way. Kurt Russell screaming "No!" during that gunfight is literally unwatchable. People who love it, whatever, but anyone who thinks it's actually a well-made film, they're nuts. Gunfight at the OK Corral with Burt Lancaster as Wyatt Earp and Kirk Douglas as Doc Holliday is the definitive film version of that story. I'd recommend that one.

@Bullitt68

You rank The Dark Knight Rises second of Nolan's filmography and the best Nolan Batman film??

View attachment 1029532

It's been a while since the search function worked on here, but since it's working now, I found this ancient post from over a decade ago. It captures some of the aspects that I find so resonant, and I stand by every word.

Going from The Dark Knight to The Dark Knight Rises is like going from Nog to Fedor or Franklin to Silva. The #2 is phenomenal, far beyond all other competition. . .but they ain't got shit on the #1

First and foremost, I liked the human element more in The Dark Knight Rises. The Dark Knight felt a step removed from character with its focus on theme, and whatever leftover space Nolan had for character, he gave it to Dent/Two-Face and just had Bale walking around growling. The Dark Knight Rises, on the other hand, was truly a character piece, and an especially great showcase for Bale on both the Batman side and the Bruce Wayne side.

Plus, even when you do go to the thematic level, The Dark Knight Rises easily wins that battle. The Batman/Bane rivalry is not only a million times more compelling than the Batman/Joker rivalry, it's also MUCH denser philosophically. With Batman/Bane, it's MUCH more than just a battle of physical wills, it's a battle of spiritual wills. Bane is obviously a doppelganger, but even more to the point, he's sort of a cautionary tale. From the mask to the dark avenger persona to the traumatic past, he is Batman, only as he says in the beginning, Batman only adopted the dark, whereas Bane is darkness. What Batman needed to do was stop dwelling in that dark place Bane calls home and learn to (re)embrace the light, the light of life.

Battling Bane on his level, clinging to death, clinging to hopelessness, allowing anger to fuel him, that will lead nowhere but the grave, and only at the depths of his despair does Batman learn that's not what he wants. At the beginning of the film, that's all he seems to want, just waiting to die and content to waste away, but then he accomplishes the step Bane never accomplished and finds the way to overcome Bane physically, and that's to overcome him spiritually, to embrace hope and life, and only then does he have the power to conquer Bane's physicality and, metaphorically, his overwhelming darkness.

That's MUCH more compelling for me than a knucklehead in make-up running around making up ethical games for Batman to play, and that's why I didn't much care for the rivalry in The Dark Knight. All Batman had to do was kill the Joker---and there was nothing the Joker could've done to stop him---and the movie would've been over and all the trouble that he caused would've been avoided. In The Dark Knight Rises, even if Batman wanted to kill Bane, he couldn't, which made everything about him that much more terrifying. Not only does Batman have to play his games because of his "code," but even if he abandoned his code, which he could've done at any point with the Joker, it still wouldn't have helped him against Bane, who posed a much tougher challenge for Batman because he had to use everything he could muster up not just intellectually, not just physically, not just ethically, but spiritually, as well. So much more was at stake and so much more was required of Bruce/Batman in The Dark Knight Rises, which made for more entertaining and enthralling viewing for me.

The Dark Knight Rises is also Nolan at his best. He grew as a filmmaker tremendously between 2005 and 2012, plus he'd gained two films' worth of experience in Batmanland by the time of The Dark Knight Rises, so literally everything is better in that film. The opening airplane sequence is phenomenal and trumps the bank robbery opener from The Dark Knight, the fight scenes are MUCH better than the fight scenes from the previous films, the gravitas to Batman is so much cooler and heavier when he returns in The Dark Knight Rises than when he shows up in The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight Rises has no competition in the entire genre of superhero films, not even from its Batman predecessors. It stands alone, and other than Inception, it's not just the best thing that Nolan's ever done, it's the best thing that I've seen thus far in the 21st Century.