The depressing state of karate

JohnPJones

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Was on r/karate and asked for the community’s thoughts on a full contact point fighting ruleset, ya know like his point fighting used to be back in the day.

I was told there are currently 2 organizations that do it already. Curious I looked into the organizations, first on YT, none of the videos showed anything that looked like full contact, and so I googled them to find their rules…long story short one literally said light contact in its first line of sparring rules and the other has moderate contact, and contact that draws blood listed as penalties.

so the fact that people even thought these were full contact leagues was really depressing
 
Full contact karate is literally kickboxing bro.
Kyokushin and daido juku is as close as it gets I guess.
Maybe karate combat is more your style lol.

I don’t understand why you would want knockouts and blood in non-continuous karate competitions. The best first-to-strike point scorers are not gonna be the best damagers.
It’s like watching sport bjj and complaining about how they would get fucked up by punches on the ground. You can just watch mma or maybe combat jiujitsu for that.

No such thing as karate kid ruleset anymore. You have higher level athletes in either kickboxing for violence or sport karate for fast twitch point scoring. Although that moderate contact karate seems like the combat jiujitsu of karate.
 
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I really like knockdown karate styles like Shidokan, Daido-Juku, Saidokaikan, etc.
Basically all the kyokushin derivatives that allow striking with the fists to the head and judo throws. Unfortunately these arts are extremely hard to find, at least where I live.

I even prefer those to combat sambo, which is clearly tilted towards grappling as opposed to striking.
 
Full contact karate is literally kickboxing bro.
Kyokushin and daido juku is as close as it gets I guess.
Maybe karate combat is more your style lol.

I don’t understand why you would want knockouts and blood in non-continuous karate competitions. The best first-to-strike point scorers are not gonna be the best damagers.
It’s like watching sport bjj and complaining about how they would get fucked up by punches on the ground. You can just watch mma or maybe combat jiujitsu for that.

No such thing as karate kid ruleset anymore. You have higher level athletes in either kickboxing for violence or sport karate for fast twitch point scoring. Although that moderate contact karate seems like the combat jiujitsu of karate.
I want an in between that can act as a transition mostly, but what I’m describing is what point fighting used to be. I just want that to come back
 
I really like knockdown karate styles like Shidokan, Daido-Juku, Saidokaikan, etc.
Basically all the kyokushin derivatives that allow striking with the fists to the head and judo throws. Unfortunately these arts are extremely hard to find, at least where I live.

I even prefer those to combat sambo, which is clearly tilted towards grappling as opposed to striking.
knock down with head punches and judo throws is basically just kudo.
They don’t self identify as karate as I understand so I am not going to claim them as karate if they won’t claim it as well.
 
knock down with head punches and judo throws is basically just kudo.
They don’t self identify as karate as I understand so I am not going to claim them as karate if they won’t claim it as well.

Right but there are a few other KO styles that follow that approach, too. All of which are rarer than pope shit.
 
Interest in karate, from my observation and with exactly 0 data, has dwindled so much except for kids being in it as extra curricular that it's led to a poor state. The most popular / successful schools in my areas are MMA, BJJ and MT schools. Karate, judo, kung fu, etc. are all only popular with the children crowd where parents think their gi's are adorable.
 
Interest in karate, from my observation and with exactly 0 data, has dwindled so much except for kids being in it as extra curricular that it's led to a poor state. The most popular / successful schools in my areas are MMA, BJJ and MT schools. Karate, judo, kung fu, etc. are all only popular with the children crowd where parents think their gi's are adorable.
Ya we’re trying to get an adult class going at my facility 2 weeks after the announcement no real interest has been shown
 
The problem with karate is it hasn't changed in the last 100 years. Brazilian jiu jitsu, for the most par,t has changed tremendously just in the last 20 years and will continue to evolve. Albeit, to be a complete well rounded fighter, one should learn striking and some form of grappling IMO
 
The problem with karate is it hasn't changed in the last 100 years. Brazilian jiu jitsu, for the most par,t has changed tremendously just in the last 20 years and will continue to evolve. Albeit, to be a complete well rounded fighter, one should learn striking and some form of grappling IMO
That’s a huge misunderstanding/myth about karate.
1900-1940s saw few changes, but post WWII there were a lot of changes in karate, and the no-light contact point fighting likewise is a fairly recent change in karate. As recently as the 80s point fighting included heavy if not full contact allowed, much like what was depicted in the karate kid movies, and now cobra kai

karate has changed plenty since 1920, but the changes since the 90s have not been for the better.
 
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Well, I think that first thing is flowchart, regardless how someone will call any art.
1. To disable opponent ASAP.
2. To score points win where you even might have more chances with certain technique.
Aka: head kick is more worth than body punch etc stuff.
Ofc even crafts like boxing and wrestling had suffered from modern or at least pre modern rules.
Like: so bad stuff is clinch fight or dirty wrestling etc more and far more things here.
A lot more things here.
 
That’s a huge misunderstanding/myth about karate.
1900-1940s saw few changes, but post WWII there were a lot of changes in karate, and the no-light contact point fighting likewise is a fairly recent change in karate. As recently as the 80s point fighting included heavy if not full contact allowed, much like what always depicted in the karate kid movies.

karate has changed plenty since 1920, but the changes since the 90s have not been for the better.
I stand corrected, you are right in that sense. Maybe 100 years was an overreach Lol I have been involved with karate in some form or fashion for over 30 years. I have met and trained with various Okinawan "masters" and they teach the way they were taught. Most of which is very heavily kata based training (not saying there's anything wrong with that). That "type" of training is what, I believe anyways, is keeping karate from progressing. My opinion
 
I stand corrected, you are right in that sense. Maybe 100 years was an overreach Lol I have been involved with karate in some form or fashion for over 30 years. I have met and trained with various Okinawan "masters" and they teach the way they were taught. Most of which is very heavily kata based training (not saying there's anything wrong with that). That "type" of training is what, I believe anyways, is keeping karate from progressing. My opinion
Agree, the stagnation of karate over the last 30 years or so has been a huge problem. I see hope though, and the YT channel karate culture is what initially sparked that hope for me. While it seems their YT channel went defunct 7 months ago, they still have good stuff.

but between them, and meeting other like minded karateka online and seeing karate combat become fairly popular in the karate community, I think karate will soon be at a tipping point. Where either karate like mine, and karate combat end up being disowned by karate in a sense and becoming its own thing (like KB) or karate like mine and KC are able to coexist with better karate becoming more popular (the shitty karate will likely never die because it is great for kids after all the modern training methods were specifically designed for use in the public school system)
 
Agree, the stagnation of karate over the last 30 years or so has been a huge problem. I see hope though, and the YT channel karate culture is what initially sparked that hope for me. While it seems their YT channel went defunct 7 months ago, they still have good stuff.

but between them, and meeting other like minded karateka online and seeing karate combat become fairly popular in the karate community, I think karate will soon be at a tipping point. Where either karate like mine, and karate combat end up being disowned by karate in a sense and becoming its own thing (like KB) or karate like mine and KC are able to coexist with better karate becoming more popular (the shitty karate will likely never die because it is great for kids after all the modern training methods were specifically designed for use in the public school system)

What youtube channel do watch or would recommend? I like some of the Karate Nerd Jesse Enkamp videos...mainly his Okinawa trip/training vids.
 
What youtube channel do watch or would recommend? I like some of the Karate Nerd Jesse Enkamp videos...mainly his Okinawa trip/training vids.
Jesse is great for the history.
Practicalkatabunkai has some good history and good drills
Karate culture is (or was) a great channel for techniques and training.
Also the karate combat channel for the fights
 
Agree, the stagnation of karate over the last 30 years or so has been a huge problem. I see hope though, and the YT channel karate culture is what initially sparked that hope for me. While it seems their YT channel went defunct 7 months ago, they still have good stuff.

but between them, and meeting other like minded karateka online and seeing karate combat become fairly popular in the karate community, I think karate will soon be at a tipping point. Where either karate like mine, and karate combat end up being disowned by karate in a sense and becoming its own thing (like KB) or karate like mine and KC are able to coexist with better karate becoming more popular (the shitty karate will likely never die because it is great for kids after all the modern training methods were specifically designed for use in the public school system)
I stand corrected, you are right in that sense. Maybe 100 years was an overreach Lol I have been involved with karate in some form or fashion for over 30 years. I have met and trained with various Okinawan "masters" and they teach the way they were taught. Most of which is very heavily kata based training (not saying there's anything wrong with that). That "type" of training is what, I believe anyways, is keeping karate from progressing. My opinion

The problem isn't karate. The problem is expectations.

People want combat sports, which is fine. But karate wasn't meant to be a combat sport. So the training isn't efficient/effective for that goal. MMA, MT, BJJ are far better combat sport teachers than karate. Karate is a great martial art but to train it for combat sports means training more like a kickboxer.

I'm at the stage where I'm teaching my son karate and that distinction has never been more obvious than in that context. I didn't put him in a karate class because I wanted to teach him proper, effective hard nosed karate from the ground up. I wanted him to spar full power. I didn't want to water it down just because the student is a child and we don't want kids hitting each other in the neck with shutos, lol. But the more I train him, the more I find myself having to say "This is the proper application for this technique...but don't do it in school." The old "it's too deadly" comment. It's not too deadly but it's hard to teach certain techniques effectively when you can't be sure the student can restrain themselves. And if you can't teach the techniques properly then you end up watering down the techniques to account for that.

The other thing is that neither kata nor kihon are based on actual combat sport principles. Principles where you know where the opponent is, you've got time to figure out distance, a limited fighting arena, etc. Every time I put him in a fighting stance, we have to start altering the kihon, particularly the hikite, and the kata to reflect the new stance. But when I'm teaching self-defense applications, like someone pushing him or grabbing his arm, the applications flow more naturally.

And this makes sense - karate isn't trying to teach anyone to win a sporting fight. People want to use karate to win a sporting fight. It's like hammering a nail with your screwdriver. Sure, you'll eventually get there but you'd get there faster with something else.

So, I always tell my son - we're training this for self-defense, to make sure no one can bully you or some stranger can't grab you off the street. If you want to go fight in the UFC or something like that, we need to sign up for MMA or something else. Because while I trust that you can dislocate someone's shoulder, break their wrist, knee, etc. defend a punch/kick and take them down if they touch you, you'd be a better fighter much faster if your training was exclusively focused on winning those fights instead of splitting time between self-defense and fighting.

And maybe that's the issue right there -- time. A lot of the time spent in karate isn't time spent on things that matter in combat sports.
 
The problem isn't karate. The problem is expectations.

People want combat sports, which is fine. But karate wasn't meant to be a combat sport. So the training isn't efficient/effective for that goal. MMA, MT, BJJ are far better combat sport teachers than karate. Karate is a great martial art but to train it for combat sports means training more like a kickboxer.

I'm at the stage where I'm teaching my son karate and that distinction has never been more obvious than in that context. I didn't put him in a karate class because I wanted to teach him proper, effective hard nosed karate from the ground up. I wanted him to spar full power. I didn't want to water it down just because the student is a child and we don't want kids hitting each other in the neck with shutos, lol. But the more I train him, the more I find myself having to say "This is the proper application for this technique...but don't do it in school." The old "it's too deadly" comment. It's not too deadly but it's hard to teach certain techniques effectively when you can't be sure the student can restrain themselves. And if you can't teach the techniques properly then you end up watering down the techniques to account for that.

The other thing is that neither kata nor kihon are based on actual combat sport principles. Principles where you know where the opponent is, you've got time to figure out distance, a limited fighting arena, etc. Every time I put him in a fighting stance, we have to start altering the kihon, particularly the hikite, and the kata to reflect the new stance. But when I'm teaching self-defense applications, like someone pushing him or grabbing his arm, the applications flow more naturally.

And this makes sense - karate isn't trying to teach anyone to win a sporting fight. People want to use karate to win a sporting fight. It's like hammering a nail with your screwdriver. Sure, you'll eventually get there but you'd get there faster with something else.

So, I always tell my son - we're training this for self-defense, to make sure no one can bully you or some stranger can't grab you off the street. If you want to go fight in the UFC or something like that, we need to sign up for MMA or something else. Because while I trust that you can dislocate someone's shoulder, break their wrist, knee, etc. defend a punch/kick and take them down if they touch you, you'd be a better fighter much faster if your training was exclusively focused on winning those fights instead of splitting time between self-defense and fighting.

And maybe that's the issue right there -- time. A lot of the time spent in karate isn't time spent on things that matter in combat sports.
The time thing is a bit of an issue, and why I am so glad I can point to Miyagi and say “it’s time to update somethings” because that’s exactly what he advocated.
Either some MT/KB style training needs to be brought into karate to get that quick boost into some sort of practical skills, or karateka need to spend 6-12 months in something like MT/KB.

the 50s-60s saw a lot of evolution, very much inline with miyagi’s quote about learning from other styles. That’s how KB came to be, that’s how shotokan got its high kicks, but then around the 70s or 80s people no longer wanted to change anything or make anything new.

so yeah instead of adapting a combat sport to self defense I think we NEED to adapt a self defense style to combat sports
 
The problem isn't karate. The problem is expectations.

People want combat sports, which is fine. But karate wasn't meant to be a combat sport. So the training isn't efficient/effective for that goal. MMA, MT, BJJ are far better combat sport teachers than karate. Karate is a great martial art but to train it for combat sports means training more like a kickboxer.

I'm at the stage where I'm teaching my son karate and that distinction has never been more obvious than in that context. I didn't put him in a karate class because I wanted to teach him proper, effective hard nosed karate from the ground up. I wanted him to spar full power. I didn't want to water it down just because the student is a child and we don't want kids hitting each other in the neck with shutos, lol. But the more I train him, the more I find myself having to say "This is the proper application for this technique...but don't do it in school." The old "it's too deadly" comment. It's not too deadly but it's hard to teach certain techniques effectively when you can't be sure the student can restrain themselves. And if you can't teach the techniques properly then you end up watering down the techniques to account for that.

The other thing is that neither kata nor kihon are based on actual combat sport principles. Principles where you know where the opponent is, you've got time to figure out distance, a limited fighting arena, etc. Every time I put him in a fighting stance, we have to start altering the kihon, particularly the hikite, and the kata to reflect the new stance. But when I'm teaching self-defense applications, like someone pushing him or grabbing his arm, the applications flow more naturally.

And this makes sense - karate isn't trying to teach anyone to win a sporting fight. People want to use karate to win a sporting fight. It's like hammering a nail with your screwdriver. Sure, you'll eventually get there but you'd get there faster with something else.

So, I always tell my son - we're training this for self-defense, to make sure no one can bully you or some stranger can't grab you off the street. If you want to go fight in the UFC or something like that, we need to sign up for MMA or something else. Because while I trust that you can dislocate someone's shoulder, break their wrist, knee, etc. defend a punch/kick and take them down if they touch you, you'd be a better fighter much faster if your training was exclusively focused on winning those fights instead of splitting time between self-defense and fighting.

And maybe that's the issue right there -- time. A lot of the time spent in karate isn't time spent on things that matter in combat sports.

This is what I try telling people all the time and you seemed to summarize it nicely. There is a difference between self defense and mma this is what a lot of people in general and in this forum don't realize.

Karate is meant for self defense and not MMA although it can be used for MMA but just isn't the most efficient for it because that's not what it's designed for (gloves and rules render knife/ridge hand strikes to vulnerable areas illegal etc.) Muay Thai for example was designed for sport competition but can also be used for self defense but not the most efficient for self defense because it's designed for sport (square stance leaving groin vulnerable/all clinching situations leave vulnerable for groin strike that wouldn't be allowed in sport). Of course any decent Muay Thai fighter would likely destroy anyone on the street but I'm just bringing a point across to further highlight your post.
 
The time thing is a bit of an issue, and why I am so glad I can point to Miyagi and say “it’s time to update somethings” because that’s exactly what he advocated.
Either some MT/KB style training needs to be brought into karate to get that quick boost into some sort of practical skills, or karateka need to spend 6-12 months in something like MT/KB.

the 50s-60s saw a lot of evolution, very much inline with miyagi’s quote about learning from other styles. That’s how KB came to be, that’s how shotokan got its high kicks, but then around the 70s or 80s people no longer wanted to change anything or make anything new.

so yeah instead of adapting a combat sport to self defense I think we NEED to adapt a self defense style to combat sports
I disagree. Self defense is very different from combat sports. If people want to train for combat sports, they should do that. If people want to train for self-defense. They should do that. They shouldn't water one down for the other.

50 years ago when there were fewer options, it made sense for someone in karate to incorporate combat sport principles into their training so they could compete and test themselves (like the high kicks that are generally avoided in self-defense situations). But in this day and age, we have MMA, we have BJJ, we have MT/KB. No one has to water down their karate to get combat sport training, they can go straight to combat sport specialists and skip all of the unnecessary karate stuff.

Karateka have to accept the limits of their martial art. We don't need an inferiority complex pushing us to alter karate so we can sit at the table with MMA and MT guys. Instead, we should simply cross train. Join a KB gym or a BJJ gym. Let our karate skills develop for their natural purpose and train combat sports for their natural purpose. We can later combine them in our personal martial arts development, not altering karate but altering ourselves.
 
I disagree. Self defense is very different from combat sports. If people want to train for combat sports, they should do that. If people want to train for self-defense. They should do that. They shouldn't water one down for the other.

50 years ago when there were fewer options, it made sense for someone in karate to incorporate combat sport principles into their training so they could compete and test themselves (like the high kicks that are generally avoided in self-defense situations). But in this day and age, we have MMA, we have BJJ, we have MT/KB. No one has to water down their karate to get combat sport training, they can go straight to combat sport specialists and skip all of the unnecessary karate stuff.

Karateka have to accept the limits of their martial art. We don't need an inferiority complex pushing us to alter karate so we can sit at the table with MMA and MT guys. Instead, we should simply cross train. Join a KB gym or a BJJ gym. Let our karate skills develop for their natural purpose and train combat sports for their natural purpose. We can later combine them in our personal martial arts development, not altering karate but altering ourselves.
What I am talking about isn’t watering anything down.
How useful is self defense training g if your kid gets beat up 4 months or a year in because the self defense methodologies take so long to translate to practical skills?

All I’m advocating is including training methodologies that result in greater short term success/progress on top of methodologies that set up the long term excellence.
The cross training or pre-training I already mentioned, but I don’t understand your insistence on pigeon holing karate to specific methods only when all the ‘old masters’ were all about changing and advancing.
If someone wants to do things the same way for 100 years that’s fine, but there’s no reason to force karate to stay the same, and stop the evolution that it’s always had.
That mind set would have seen karate never start, and we’d just be with tegumi or Kung fu and people saying if you want to strike just train Kung fu, or if you want to grapple just do tegumi
 
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