Daido Juku/Kudo vs. Sabaki

[AshiharaFan]

they were talking about headgear and how it can increase whiplash like force. Their argument was that the added size of the headgear increases the force on your brain.

Yeah, this is cause for concern. I love the format and structure that Daido Juku has in place, but I'm not so foolish as to ignore the potential problems and flaws of their sparring system, especially if they can be a detriment to the neck and brain.

The Nihon Zendokai people use essentially the same kind of head gear you will find used in amateur boxing. Does anyone here know the reason(s) why they went from the space helmet to the amateur boxing head-guard? Does anyone know if it changes some of these potential dangers that have been pointed out in this thread? And if so, are the changes (if any) for better or worse?

Some people may very logically conclude that the knockdown style of sparring is better from a safety perspective. They may or may not be right. I have sparred in that fashion on numerous occasions and I can tell you getting kicked and punched in your ribs and chest over and over can really, really suck after a while. Perhaps it was the limitations I had in body hardening and conditioning at the time. I don't know.

 

[Tayski]

it's all about finding the right balance and middle ground.

The closer to reality your style and training is, and the more dangerous it is for your brain and body. And on the other hand if your style and training is without any danger you're probably not training realistically.

Ideally you want to train as realistically as possible but without damaging your brain and body too much.

Some will argue that headgear and punching each others faces is how you learn real fighting and real defensive skills. On the other hand you have those who'd rather save their brain cells to the risk of losing some of the realistic aspect of fighting.

 

[AshiharaFan]

it's all about finding the right balance and middle ground.

The closer to reality your style and training is, and the more dangerous it is for your brain and body. And on the other hand if your style and training is without any danger you're probably not training realistically.

Ideally you want to train as realistically as possible but without damaging your brain and body too much.

Some will argue that headgear and punching each others faces is how you learn real fighting and real defensive skills. On the other hand you have those who'd rather save their brain cells to the risk of losing some of the realistic aspect of fighting.

I'm starting to think that the only thing we can do is train safe to save our bodies and brain cells and if we get into an actual street confrontation, fight as hard as we can and hope for the best. :icon_sad:

 

[A Muse of Fire]

well, I am afraid of getting blinded from a thumb in the eye or something like that. I also don't like getting punched in the face. The striking style i liked doing best was a karate variant similar to Shotokan. It is rare though, and the only striking in my area is kickboxing / MT

I am concerned about concussions and getting hurt in sparring, but choosing competent sparring partners is probably a better way to do that.

 

[AshiharaFan]

well, I am afraid of getting blinded from a thumb in the eye or something like that.

Me too (among other things), which is why I find the Kudo helmet so attractive.

I am concerned about concussions and getting hurt in sparring, but choosing competent sparring partners is probably a better way to do that.

This. One must choose training partners who don't behave like our sparring session is a competition or world tournament elimination match.

Also, there are some things that are unique to the Oriental Martial Arts which actually negate much of the risks and concern that usually come with Western Boxing. I'll elaborate sometime tomorrow since it's already late and I have to get up in a few hours.

 

[shinkyoku]

Do you guys chose who you spar with? Going "no, I do not want to fight with you" to some?
I am not a pro fighter who hires sparring partners, so I have to do with the members of my dojo.
I spar with whomever the round robin places in front of me, blackbelt or whitebelt, competent or incompetent.
Ofcourse I can do extra sparring out of class with those whom I am comfortable fighting, but in regular training i do not have that luxury. Anyway, fighting only those who you are comfortable fighting is not a good way to improve skill.

 

[Tayski]

and that's why I like kyokushin so much even with its flaws that people like to push forward all the time (lack of head punching in tournaments). At least I'm saving some brain cells and rarely have to train with meat-heads.

 

[Tayski]

Do you guys chose who you spar with? Going "no, I do not want to fight with you" to some?
I am not a pro fighter who hires sparring partners, so I have to do with the members of my dojo.
I spar with whomever the round robin places in front of me, blackbelt or whitebelt, competent or incompetent.
Ofcourse I can do extra sparring out of class with those whom I am comfortable fighting, but in regular training i do not have that luxury. Anyway, fighting only those who you are comfortable fighting is not a good way to improve skill.

I think he's talking about the kind of idiot who tries to injure their training partners just to boost their ego, and is training just to be able to beat up people.
They are relatively rare in knockdown karate styles (they usually don't have the patience to stay in a dojo), but you can usually find more of them in other fight sports (boxing, MMA, etc.).

 

[AshiharaFan]

Do you guys chose who you spar with? Going "no, I do not want to fight with you" to some?

While I have never done this I do know that it is my prerogative if I so choose.

Anyway, fighting only those who you are comfortable fighting is not a good way to improve skill.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Consistently fighting someone who spars like you just raped his mother can actually hinder improvement. You either have to weather injuries (some of which can cut into your training time while others can be seriously detrimental) or you yourself may have to go all out and "brawl" with him just to try to keep him at bay to some degree and I can tell you that doesn't always work, especially if this hothead happens to be stronger, better skilled and more athletic than you. It CAN and DOES often backfire.

But sparring someone who is very skilled and very athletic but DOES NOT spar like he wants your head on a stake to put in front of his house IS a good way to improve skill. If that particular sparring partner is very skilled then YES you CAN improve in skill yourself by sparring him. I think you are viewing a cool headed sparring partner as being synonymous with a not so very skilled sparring partner. A not so skilled sparring partner who's a hothead can be the one to take the fun out of training.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I think he's talking about the kind of idiot who tries to injure their training partners just to boost their ego, and is training just to be able to beat up people.

That's right Tayski. That kind if idiot is EXACTLY who I'm talking about. We all have the right to say "I'll Pass" when it comes to sparring with them.

They are relatively rare in knockdown karate styles (they usually don't have the patience to stay in a dojo), but you can usually find more of them in other fight sports (boxing, MMA, etc.).

This seems very plausible (that they are rare in knockdown Karate due to lack of patience to stay in a dojo). It sounds plausible because this type of person has a certain type of personality and character which usually does not go well in a traditional dojo environment. And YES I have sparred these kinds if idiots in boxing, BJJ and Judo. I even had two guys at the WTF Taekwondo school I went to some years ago who I dreaded to spar with. It just never donned on me to say to certain people "I'll pass on sparring with you".

It may make you look like a beeotch in some people's eyes, but some of us have to work which is hard to do if you have to miss work due to a serious injury. And showing up at the office with shiners and missing teeth is not a good look for someone who is not getting paid to be a professional fighter. :icon_lol:

I do not formally train in a knockdown Karate style. I live in Pittsburgh and as far as my search has come up with, there are absolutely no knockdown Karate schools in this city. The closest we had was a lady who used to teach Kyokushinkai to children. That school is no longer operating here and even if it did, like I said, her school was dedicated to teaching children.

It looks like I may have to bring knockdown Karate to this city myself somehow.

 

[AshiharaFan]

and that's why I like kyokushin so much even with its flaws that people like to push forward all the time (lack of head punching in tournaments). At least I'm saving some brain cells and rarely have to train with meat-heads.

Understood. I'm curious; if you had the opportunity to train and spar in the manner they do in Kudo would you do so? If yes, why? If no, why not?

 

[Tayski]

I do not formally train in a knockdown Karate style. I live in Pittsburgh and as far as my search has come up with, there are absolutely no knockdown Karate schools in this city.
It looks like I may have to bring knockdown Karate to this city myself somehow.

if you drive there are a few dojos about an hour drive or less from you. I think there may even be some in Pittsburgh.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forum.../dojo-homepage/2116-harvey-dojo-pittsburgh-pa

dojo in Boardman:
http://www.uskyokushin.com/dojos.htm

Understood. I'm curious; if you had the opportunity to train and spar in the manner they do in Kudo would you do so? If yes, why? If no, why not?

If I had the opportunity I probably would, for instance if it was local to me I would most probably go. There is a daido juku / kudo dojo in West London I could go to, but it's not the easiest access for me.

But again as mentioned before, I'm quite happy with knockdown karate and its full contact bare knuckle aspect, and how it develops you mentally and physically all while relatively saving brain cells, unlike let's say boxing.

Kudo would have that issue too, so I would dab in it sometimes like I do boxing or muay thai, but it wouldn't be my main sport in which I would like to compete.
But it's all a personal choice really.

 

[AshiharaFan]

if you drive there are a few dojos about an hour drive or less from you. I think there may even be some in Pittsburgh.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forum.../dojo-homepage/2116-harvey-dojo-pittsburgh-pa

dojo in Boardman:
http://www.uskyokushin.com/dojos.htm

I will have to register with Kyokushin4Life in order to see if that information is still valid (the year of that thread is 2007). But thanks for the info all the same. Other than that, I would have to drive for 4 hours to Ohio to train with some Daido Juku/Kudo guys and about 5 hours to Virginia to train with some Enshin Karate guys. I'll take whatever I can get but Ashihara Karate and Daido Juku are the two arts that I really, really like the most.

If I had the opportunity I probably would, for instance if it was local to me I would most probably go. There is a daido juku / kudo dojo in West London I could go to, but it's not the easiest access for me.

Same here and I am not content with traveling there once or twice per month to train with them. Some people will say Some training is better than No training at all. But you cannot develop really well if all you can get is two or three days of training per month.

But again as mentioned before, I'm quite happy with knockdown karate and its full contact bare knuckle aspect, and how it develops you mentally and physically all while relatively saving brain cells, unlike let's say boxing.

Understood and agree.

Kudo would have that issue too, so I would dab in it sometimes like I do boxing or muay thai, but it wouldn't be my main sport in which I would like to compete.
But it's all a personal choice really.

I'm not so sure that Kudo would be on the same level as Boxing when it comes to the brain cells risk aspect. In fact, I remember reading a research article about two (or maybe three) months ago saying that American Football (meaning the NFL) and Western, Professional boxing incur more concussions and brain damage than professional MMA. And the conclusion (which I mostly agreed with) is because football and boxing are Head-Hunting Sports compared to Martial Arts and MMA.

I have been searching and searching and searching for any type of article, review, research or biographical material that point to a high brain attrition rate like how you get with American Football and Pro Boxing. I have yet to find anything.

The one issue that seems to come up regularly (based on my own research) is that the Kudo helmet fits the head in such a way that although the face is protected from structural damage, a person can still feel a sort of "shockwave effect" from blows to the face and they particularly feel it in the nose and chin. I've also read that a person can still get knocked out and get their bell rung which is obvious anyway and to be expected so that is not surprising or necessarily discouraging news to me.

But I agree with you that Kudo is not something that I would want to fight in every week let alone everyday. If given the opportunity, I would spar under Kudo rules two times per month maximum with once a month being more ideal. And truth be told, you don't necessarily have to train in Kudo in order to spar under Kudo rules. All you need is the helmet and other protective gear that they wear and a partner who agrees to spar with you under Kudo rules.

I also agree with you that too much sparring in this manner can be a HUGE risk on the brain cells, but I also believe that to spar like that every so often keeps you more "street ready" and getting used to fighting a brawler. Once or twice per month should be good enough for that IMO.

If you do find a willing partner to spar every once in a while in this manner just remind each other that neither one of you are in a Kudo competition so no need to spar like the winner will be crowned world sparring champion. Safety First!

 

[shinkyoku]

I will have to register with Kyokushin4Life in order to see if that information is still valid (the year of that thread is 2007).

Kyokushin4Life recently went through a serious database crash, and finding their new backups corrupted they had to dig hard before finding a dusty but working backup, losing several years of posts and member signups. Any recent information was probably lost in the crash, so you might have to ask again.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

here is my kudo fights and sparring footage


as for the space helmet, I bought one very expensive, never used it after

actually worried it has more of a concussive effect, pressure and noise, similar to ieds....could even be worse

 

[Tayski]

Kyokushin4Life recently went through a serious database crash, and finding their new backups corrupted they had to dig hard before finding a dusty but working backup, losing several years of posts and member signups. Any recent information was probably lost in the crash, so you might have to ask again.

they desperately need new active members to make it as active as it was before.

@AshiharaFan feel free to register and ask about a dojo in your location, you'll have people happily helping you.

 

[Harukaze]

they desperately need new active members to make it as active as it was before.
.

The site got ruined after FredInChina bought it off the old Aussie admin.

 

[AshiharaFan]

as for the space helmet, I bought one very expensive, never used it after

actually worried it has more of a concussive effect, pressure and noise, similar to ieds....could even be worse

Good stuff Dan.

As for your comments concerning the helmets, can you possibly elaborate and go into more detail? (concussive effect and pressure).

 

[AshiharaFan]

they desperately need new active members to make it as active as it was before.

@AshiharaFan feel free to register and ask about a dojo in your location, you'll have people happily helping you.

@Tayski, I registered and then I was sent a link to my email that I had to click on in order for my account to be active but when I clicked on the link that they sent I was sent to a 404 error page. :icon_conf

 

[AshiharaFan]

*Deleted*