Laugh all you want I don't give a sh*t. The carnivore diet is the real deal

[monkeyrhythm]

I used to follow that kind of mainstream research that told me to eat a low fat diet mainly consisting of grains like bread and pastas 5-6 times a day and ultimately, it nearly killed me. I imagine that the remedy prescribed by all 6 of the doctors who treated me, immunosuppressants and antibiotics, was also backed by 'well respected' peer reviewed research.

After realizing that they were all misinformed and that my disease could be treated in a far more effective way through diet that gave me a better quality of life and the best health I've ever had, I reached the conclusion that a lot of the research was bullshit and designed to make me sick and dependent on expensive drugs.

Op, while cavalier in the way he gives his opinion, is relatable and I think that he, along with others like us, write of our personal experiences with aip and carnivore diet because it works. That's really all I care about. Maybe someday actual science not tainted by special interests other than finding the truth will further explain why it works.

It's funny, people throw around terms like 'medical science' to back these bogus treatments for our immune systems made weak by our diets suggesting that, if you disagree, you don't believe in facts and truth when in reality, much of modern day medical science should be called the medical arts as it's still very much in it's infancy.

Thanks to financial interests like pharmaceutical companies who have a pill or a jab for every malady, the waters of mainstream western medicine have been muddied so much that it's hard to take anything they say seriously.

Personal experience trumps whatever advice they have after the way I was screwed up by the treatment recommended by my 6 doctors. Thank God I'm off their garbage now. Since not listening to them anymore, I've never felt better and fear no virus. If I can maintain my medical freedom and keep their vaccines out of my body, I'll be a happy camper. I'd rather drink snake oil and have my blood sucked by leeches than deal with the side effects of that garbage.

If I were wrong, wouldn't I be in poor health? I've never felt better. Aip, fasting, and carnivore are all good tools that everyone should experiment with. What do you have to lose? You can always disregard it later if you don't feel like it helps, and if that's the case, talk about it here. Like I said, I'm more interested in people's personal experience these days than studies and research.

What's your vetting process for 'respectable' journals and credentials? Have you experimented with aip or carnivore? You might have allergies that you're not even aware of. You should at least try it. Tell us how it goes. It not only saved my life, I feel better at 39 than I did in my 20s.

I have experimented with a carnivore diet (I felt great), but I didn't embark on it without researching the science.
Whilst it's true there haven't been interventional studies on carnivore diets specifically, there have been on high-fat/ketogenic diets, fasting, low-fat, high-protein, high-fibre etc, all of which can be used to help to understand the various mechanisms of action at play, and highlight key factors which should be considered along the way. As you point out, there are a growing number of personal anecdotes of carnivore diet adherents too. It's also useful to understand the history and science which led to the typical, standard nutritional recommendations, and also what may be evolutionarily consistent.

Epidemiology is a type of observational data which is limited when it comes to nutrition, but can still be helpful, particularly when it comes to generating hypotheses for further study.
Personal anecdotes are another form of helpful, but of course limited, observational data. To entirely dismiss one but hold another in the highest regard seems misguided at best.

Carnivore is a fantastic elimination diet, but I'm personally not convinced it (or permanent ketosis) is optimal over the long term. A ruminant animal based/heavy diet which, in addition to muscle meat includes organs, bone-broth, some seafood plus evolutionary consistent foods like honey, fruit, some easy to digest vegetables etc, may, for many people, be about as good as it gets, but that's just conjecture at this stage.

 

[Robocok]

I have experimented with a carnivore diet (I felt great), but I didn't embark on it without researching the science.
Whilst it's true there haven't been interventional studies on carnivore diets specifically, there have been on high-fat/ketogenic diets, fasting, low-fat, high-protein, high-fibre etc, all of which can be used to help to understand the various mechanisms of action at play, and highlight key factors which should be considered along the way. As you point out, there are a growing number of personal anecdotes of carnivore diet adherents too. It's also useful to understand the history and science which led to the typical, standard nutritional recommendations, and also what may be evolutionarily consistent.

Epidemiology is a type of observational data which is limited when it comes to nutrition, but can still be helpful, particularly when it comes to generating hypotheses for further study.
Personal anecdotes are another form of helpful, but of course limited, observational data. To entirely dismiss one but hold another in the highest regard seems misguided at best.

Carnivore is a fantastic elimination diet, but I'm personally not convinced it (or permanent ketosis) is optimal over the long term. A ruminant animal based/heavy diet which, in addition to muscle meat includes organs, bone-broth, some seafood plus evolutionary consistent foods like honey, fruit, some easy to digest vegetables etc, may, for many people, be about as good as it gets, but that's just conjecture at this stage.

I eat fruit and veg. I can't go full carnivore but it's interesting to me.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

I feel far, far better on a high protein, medium carb, low fat diet but to each their own. Lately I also prefer to eat 4 smaller meals but for some people intermittent fasting works better. I’ve tried it all and wouldn’t be shocked if some day I’ll prefer IF again. I won’t go back to carnivore or keto because it was hell on my digestive system, and beyond... lol

I feel like most people have to experiment with what works for them and that also will often change depending on lifestyle and goals. People get too dogmatic with this stuff; eat what you like and what makes you feel good. If you want to lose weight eat in a calorie deficit, if you want to to gain weight eat in a calorie surplus.

 

[Robocok]

I feel far, far better on a high protein, medium carb, low fat diet but to each their own. Lately I also prefer to eat 4 smaller meals but for some people intermittent fasting works better. I’ve tried it all and wouldn’t be shocked if some day I’ll prefer IF again. I won’t go back to carnivore or keto because it was hell on my digestive system, and beyond... lol

I feel like most people have to experiment with what works for them and that also will often change depending on lifestyle and goals. People get too dogmatic with this stuff; eat what you like and what makes you feel good. If you want to lose weight eat in a calorie deficit, if you want to to gain weight eat in a calorie surplus.

Some days I have no appetite and feel like fasting. Other times, I'm hungry from the moment I wake up until bedtime. Just go by feel also pretty much, eating whatever I'm craving as long as it's a food that I'm not allergic to.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I eat fruit and veg. I can't go full carnivore but it's interesting to me.

I find it interesting too. I do try to be careful to recognise my personal biases though, and look at evidence from all sides.
For example, there have been well done, interventional studies which show that a low-fat, plant-based diet can reverse cardiovascular disease, and improve metabolic function. That's not to say it's the only diet which can do that, or that eating that way is optimal when all things are considered, and/or it's the only/best way to eat in contrast to other strategies.

Without a doubt, we still have much to learn/discover.

 

[Robocok]

I find it interesting too. I do try to be careful to recognise my personal biases though, and look at evidence from all sides.
For example, there have been well done, interventional studies which show that a low-fat, plant-based diet can reverse cardiovascular disease, and improve metabolic function. That's not to say it's the only diet which can do that, or that eating that way is optimal when all things are considered, and/or it's the only/best way to eat in contrast to other strategies.

Without a doubt, we still have much to learn/discover.

Sometimes I crave a salad or some veg juice. I've discovered that I like many fermented and pickled fruits and veg. Basically, I just eat whatever I crave as long as it's a food that I know I can tolerate.

I always stay away from gluten, soy, and vegetable oils (except olive, coconut, and some avocado) all of which fuck me up bad. I've become hypersensitive to soy. If I eat soy, I know that I can expect to experience severe depression for the next 2-3 days. It's been a journey of experimentation to figure this out. Totally worth it though because I know that as long as I have access to good quality animal products and probiotic rich foods like kombucha, pickles, etc, I'm going to feel great.

Nightshades and legumes are treated with caution. Nuts can give me issues, but sometimes it's worth the mild allergies to enjoy a little peanut butter or spicy pepper.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Sometimes I crave a salad or some veg juice. I've discovered that I like many fermented and pickled fruits and veg. Basically, I just eat whatever I crave as long as it's a food that I know I can tolerate.

I always stay away from gluten, soy, and vegetable oils (except olive, coconut, and some avocado) all of which fuck me up bad. I've become hypersensitive to soy. If I eat soy, I know that I can expect to experience severe depression for the next 2-3 days. It's been a journey of experimentation to figure this out. Totally worth it though because I know that as long as I have access to good quality animal products and probiotic rich foods like kombucha, pickles, etc, I'm going to feel great.

Nightshades and legumes are treated with caution. Nuts can give me issues, but sometimes it's worth the mild allergies to enjoy a little peanut butter or spicy pepper.

Your approach sounds like a diet I could feel good on too.

I'd be curious to know if you reacted to fermented soy i.e. Proper miso - but it sounds like it would be too risky of an experiment.

Re soy (sauce) alternatives - @wufabufa pointed me in the direction of coconut aminos in another thread which are fantastic.

 

[Robocok]

Your approach sounds like a diet I could feel good on too.

I'd be curious to know if you reacted to fermented soy i.e. Proper miso - but it sounds like it would be too risky of an experiment.

Re soy (sauce) alternatives - @wufabufa pointed me in the direction of coconut aminos in another thread which are fantastic.

I'd be down to try a little. I think there has to be a vast difference between the gmo soy crap we have in the US compared to proper soy they eat in Japan, the country with the most centenarians.

 

[therealdope]

A lot of of you that "feel better: on the carnivore diet may just be experiencing the benefits of eliminating amylase trypsin inhibitors by not eating wheat, oats, buckwheat.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

A lot of of you that "feel better: on the carnivore diet may just be experiencing the benefits of eliminating amylase trypsin inhibitors by not eating wheat, oats, buckwheat.

This may well be true for some, but alot of people (anecdotally) report benefit when they've transitioned from strict paleo or keto diets where they've already avoided all grains for some time. With carnivore it may be as simple as many people have some form of gut dysbiosis, and removing all carbohydrates cuts off the fuel source of the 'bad' bacteria (all FODMAPs etc.). Additionally, some people may have other sensitivities to plant compounds such as oxalates, or histamine (it is still possible to consume some high histamine foods whilst adhering to a carnivore diet though).
Also, many people have some level of insulin-resistance/metabolic-disfunction, and a very low carb diet (which carnivore obviously is) can help to improve insulin sensitivity.
Another thing with carnivore dieters who include organ meats where they may not have previously, is the consumption of highly bioavailable nutrients they may have been lacking in.

There are many potential mechanisms of action as to why an individual may "feel better" following a carnivore diet, at least initially. I think it's greatest utility is as an elimination diet which, if implemented intelligently, is nutrient complete*

*notwithstanding the fact we still have much to learn when it comes to the gut microbiome etc. I may well change my stance as our understanding grows.

 

[thehighking]

I think the role of diet on health is much overstated. People who eat lots of vegetables and eat what we think of as healthy are more likely to live healthier lives. I think that's because these people are more likely to not smoke, drink or do drugs and are more likely to exercise and generally live healthier (higher education and less hard labour, coal mining etc), less stressful lifestyles. Barring severe vitamin deficiencies I don't think diet is anything as important as people think.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I think the role of diet on health is much overstated. People who eat lots of vegetables and eat what we think of as healthy are more likely to live healthier lives. I think that's because these people are more likely to not smoke, drink or do drugs and are more likely to exercise and generally live healthier (higher education and less hard labour, coal mining etc), less stressful lifestyles. Barring severe vitamin deficiencies I don't think diet is anything as important as people think.

Healthy user bias is without a doubt a huge factor, and confounding variable which influences much of nutritional science, particularly observational epidemiology; that said, it's not by any means the whole picture. I know first-hand how my health was decimated as a teenager (when I was incredibly active, ate well, and didn't participate in too many unhealthy behaviours, at least regularly). That persisted for many, many years until I was able to get a handle on my diet.
I'm not saying that diet caused my issues, that may have been down to a couple of courses of antibiotics causing gut dysbiosis, plus unidentified food sensitivities, plus a number of other potential factors; however, food/diet has been the most powerful tool in improving my health status. Additionally, my wife has a number of very severe chronic health conditions which, without question, are affected (both positively and negatively) by what she eats.

 

[therealdope]

This may well be true for some, but alot of people (anecdotally) report benefit when they've transitioned from strict paleo or keto diets where they've already avoided all grains for some time. With carnivore it may be as simple as many people have some form of gut dysbiosis, and removing all carbohydrates cuts off the fuel source of the 'bad' bacteria (all FODMAPs etc.). Additionally, some people may have other sensitivities to plant compounds such as oxalates, or histamine (it is still possible to consume some high histamine foods whilst adhering to a carnivore diet though).
Also, many people have some level of insulin-resistance/metabolic-disfunction, and a very low carb diet (which carnivore obviously is) can help to improve insulin sensitivity.
Another thing with carnivore dieters who include organ meats where they may not have previously, is the consumption of highly bioavailable nutrients they may have been lacking in.

There are many potential mechanisms of action as to why an individual may "feel better" following a carnivore diet, at least initially. I think it's greatest utility is as an elimination diet which, if implemented intelligently, is nutrient complete*

*notwithstanding the fact we still have much to learn when it comes to the gut microbiome etc. I may well change my stance as our understanding grows.

Not doubting that it may be a multi-factorial outcome but many grains evolved ATIs in order to protect themselves. They interfere with the digestion of carbohydrates and protein. ATIs are so powerful that the grain itself cannot germinate without secreting its own anti-ATI enzyme to silence its own ATI.

I work in the liver healthcare space. Many people don't know that hepatology is a sub-specialty of gastroenterology, and the topic of diet is so closely related to the liver because of its role in digestion. Based on 5 yrs of attending the American and European liver disease meetings, there are three things that I found particularly interesting.

1. Gluten sensitivity is a complete crock of shit. There is celiac disease, an allergy to gluten which is very serious, but there is no such thing as gluten sensitivity. What people report as 'gluten sensitivity' is a digestion problem related to amylase trypsin inhibitors. The widespread use of wheat in modern diets has lead to an insensitivity to ATIs, in the vast portion of the population. When someone who is sensitive to ATIs eliminates gluten from their diet, they are just eliminating grains that produce high quantities of ATIs.

2. Consumption of red meat is the second highest correlated risk factor in metabolic disorder and its related diseases (type II diabetes/insulin resistance, cardiovascular disease and cancer).

3. the specific reason(s) that processed foods are terrible for your health (high temperature cooking/processing, highly stabilized fats, preservatives that decrease necessary gut bacteria count, high sugar content).


It always bothered me when I would hear "eliminate processed foods", but there was no specific explanation as to what it was about processed foods that was so unhealthy. I have no particular love for processed foods but I always wanted to know specifically why they were so bad.

 

[therealdope]

Healthy user bias is without a doubt a huge factor, and confounding variable which influences much of nutritional science, particularly observational epidemiology; that said, it's not by any means the whole picture.

This is something that nutrition science/broscience 'self proclaimed experts' throw out routinely to dismiss study data that doesn't agree with whatever 'unique' knowledge they are trying to peddle. "Doctors have it all wrong, this is what you need to do !!!". Healthy user bias is only the second most used method of refuting scientific papers they don't like; second only to 'it was a retrospective study and not a controlled study!!!". This is the equivalent of, 'you can't show me evolution ... I take it on faith that my religion is true".

Both of these canards ignore the power and use of multi-variate analysis. How do you account for healthy user bias, you look at the cross-correlation and interaction coefficients with healthy individuals vs unhealthy individuals --- as well as the other parameters being measured.

Are controlled studies a more ideal way to study complex systems? Absolutely.

Are controlled studies necessary to study complex systems? Absolutely not.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

1. Gluten sensitivity is a complete crock of shit. There is celiac disease, an allergy to gluten which is very serious, but there is no such thing as gluten sensitivity. What people report as 'gluten sensitivity' is a digestion problem related to amylase trypsin inhibitors. The widespread use of wheat in modern diets has lead to an insensitivity to ATIs, in the vast portion of the population. When someone who is sensitive to ATIs eliminates gluten from their diet, they are just eliminating grains that produce high quantities of ATIs.

I completely agree with you.

2. Consumption of red meat is the second highest correlated risk factor in metabolic disorder and its related diseases (type II diabetes/insulin resistance, cardiovascular disease and cancer).

Whilst this is true, I think there is some weight to the bro-scientists argument that this is one area where much analysis is confounded by “unhealthy” user bias. If red meat itself is causative for metabolic disorder and its related diseases, I don’t think we have a good understanding of the mechanism of action at play. You may disagree but the cholesterol and TMAO hypotheses don’t appear to stand up in my eyes.

3. the specific reason(s) that processed foods are terrible for your health (high temperature cooking/processing, highly stabilized fats, preservatives that decrease necessary gut bacteria count, high sugar content).

It always bothered me when I would hear "eliminate processed foods", but there was no specific explanation as to what it was about processed foods that was so unhealthy. I have no particular love for processed foods but I always wanted to know specifically why they were so bad.

These are all solid reasons, and I share your frustration as I also always want to know “why”; that said, I’m fairly confident that there are other mechanisms at play, and it may be that some of them contradict the general “healthy eating” recommendations. For example, there’s some interesting mechanistic hypotheses related to the negative consequences of excess PUFA consumption, in particular linoleic acid, which has sparked interest and study. Much of it initiated by the work of Peter over at Hyperlipid https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

This is something that nutrition science/broscience 'self proclaimed experts' throw out routinely to dismiss study data that doesn't agree with whatever 'unique' knowledge they are trying to peddle. "Doctors have it all wrong, this is what you need to do !!!". Healthy user bias is only the second most used method of refuting scientific papers they don't like; second only to 'it was a retrospective study and not a controlled study!!!". This is the equivalent of, 'you can't show me evolution ... I take it on faith that my religion is true".


Both of these canards ignore the power and use of multi-variate analysis. How do you account for healthy user bias, you look at the cross-correlation and interaction coefficients with healthy individuals vs unhealthy individuals --- as well as the other parameters being measured.


Are controlled studies a more ideal way to study complex systems? Absolutely.


Are controlled studies necessary to study complex systems? Absolutely not.

I defer to your training and experience in the healthcare and nutrition space. I will say that I am somewhat of an expert in complex systems though (as douchey as that reads), and my experience is that most people intuitively underestimate how complex even “basic” systems are (let alone something as intricate as the human body). Depending on the audience, this is where I would usually contrast the three-body against the two-body problem as it seems to help illustrate it pretty well for most.

Believe me, I’m not trying to be argumentative; I just really, really want to understand. I completely agree that observational studies have value; but if nothing else, interventional studies like the Minnesota Coronary Experiment and The Sydney Diet Heart Study, the results of which challenge conventional thinking about nutrition (much of which was reached by epidemiological analysis), show us that we still have much to learn.

 

[gluehuffer1776]

have you had a lipid panel since starting the diet?

 

[Robocok]

This is something that nutrition science/broscience 'self proclaimed experts' throw out routinely to dismiss study data that doesn't agree with whatever 'unique' knowledge they are trying to peddle. "Doctors have it all wrong, this is what you need to do !!!". Healthy user bias is only the second most used method of refuting scientific papers they don't like; second only to 'it was a retrospective study and not a controlled study!!!". This is the equivalent of, 'you can't show me evolution ... I take it on faith that my religion is true".

Both of these canards ignore the power and use of multi-variate analysis. How do you account for healthy user bias, you look at the cross-correlation and interaction coefficients with healthy individuals vs unhealthy individuals --- as well as the other parameters being measured.

Are controlled studies a more ideal way to study complex systems? Absolutely.

Are controlled studies necessary to study complex systems? Absolutely not.

Deja vu. I recall having this conversation with you before. You tout your credentials and the many conferences you attended with leading pharmacology experts.

I tried everything the doctors recommended, which was drugs, and it resulted in short intervals of relief with my disease rebounding harder after each flare up.

For over 5 years I've been fully restored without a single flare up. Aip diet is what worked for me and others. Are there any other explanations for that besides ATI?

As I understand it, processed foods have been stripped of many of their nutrients often times with extra crap that isn't really food added in like preservatives and artificial flavorings and food coloring which is linked to cancer.

Also, why not differentiate between red meat that comes from factory farming where they're fed corn and soy, raised knee deep in their own waste, and given antibiotics versus grass fed cattle? Grass fed red meat hasn't given me any problems but if I eat the the factory farm meat then I feel like crap. Could it be that the antibiotics given to the animals has an effect on our own microbiome?

What about the role of fermented foods and how it correlates to our gut health? If you're current on your research, you should know the importance of a healthy gut, especially with so many people suffering from leaky gut nowadays.

Less drugs and shots, more organic whole foods raised and grown the right way.

 

[Oblivian]

A lot of of you that "feel better: on the carnivore diet may just be experiencing the benefits of eliminating amylase trypsin inhibitors by not eating wheat, oats, buckwheat.

I came in to say something similar. For a lot of people, it may simply just be eliminating pasta and rice.

 

[Robocok]

I came in to say something similar. For a lot of people, it may simply just be eliminating pasta and rice.

A lot of gluten free products are full of soy which isn't tolerated well by some.

 

[Robocok]

The push to get people off meat.