Muay Thai or Karate? Want to start training one of them.

[AngryPorto]

I have a black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate and began practicing in 1999 at the tender age of 10. I didn't start kickboxing and muay thai until 2007. I have to say that I never realized how much I sucked until I started MT and KB.

While karate definitely has some very useful aspects (breathing control, weapon defense techniques, etc), if you're looking to learn the most efficient and practical way to defend yourself, I'd suggest muay thai. In my experience, in a real fight (or an MMA style competition) between an equal level karate and muay thai fighter the MT guy will tool on him. Only at the highest echelons of karate have I found practitioners to be very, very good. Even then, once I started learning muay thai and kickboxing and BJJ, I began to tool on 3rd and 4th degree and even Masters, especially if we did MMA style sparring. Why? Because they don't know how to clinch, ground fight, or take a real punch/kick. They've spent their life honing the get-in-get-out style that Lyoto Machida is so good at, at while we've seen how successful it can be, most people aren't as good as Machida to be able to pull it off.

It's a shame. I wonder how good I could be today if in 1999 I began with a more practical art. /sigh

 

[shinkyoku]

I have a black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate and began practicing in 1999 at the tender age of 10. I didn't start kickboxing and muay thai until 2007. I have to say that I never realized how much I sucked until I started MT and KB.

While karate definitely has some very useful aspects (breathing control, weapon defense techniques, etc), if you're looking to learn the most efficient and practical way to defend yourself, I'd suggest muay thai. In my experience, in a real fight (or an MMA style competition) between an equal level karate and muay thai fighter the MT guy will tool on him. Only at the highest echelons of karate have I found practitioners to be very, very good. Even then, once I started learning muay thai and kickboxing and BJJ, I began to tool on 3rd and 4th degree and even Masters, especially if we did MMA style sparring. Why? Because they don't know how to clinch, ground fight, or take a real punch/kick. They've spent their life honing the get-in-get-out style that Lyoto Machida is so good at, at while we've seen how successful it can be, most people aren't as good as Machida to be able to pull it off.

It's a shame. I wonder how good I could be today if in 1999 I began with a more practical art. /sigh

Trying to talk about karate as if it is one generalized entity that is the same anywhere, is... very uninformed.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/so-you-think-you-know-all-about-karate-2263005/index7.html

 

[Deleted member 347815]

Please be aware that while Muay Thai is more or less united under one set of rules, Karate is very much not.
Karate is fractured under many very different sets of sport rules and organizations, that have very little to do with each other.

These types of karate-

Great post as usual Shinkyoku, a couple questions that bother me. I see guys like in these two videos and other videos with a bunch of blackbelts who are fighting like MT fighters, MMA fighters etc yet I have no idea what the hell styles they represent or how they got their blackbelts.. like the bottom video, what the hell style is that??

 

[Deleted member 347815]

Great post as usual Shinkyoku, a couple questions that bother me. I see guys like in these two videos and other videos with a bunch of blackbelts who are fighting like MT fighters, MMA fighters etc yet I have no idea what the hell styles they represent or how they got their blackbelts.. like the bottom video, what the hell style is that??

video edit: NOT the Kyokushin video, this one and the other one I quoted. (K2)

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I think the popular thing is gonna be Muay Thai, and there are good reasons for that, but me PERSONALLY, I have developed an infatuation with karate lately so if I had to choose it all over again I would pick karate. Just finding the right brand of it since there are forms of it to meet any want (fun, fitness, full contact fighting, sport etc).

 

[Yodsanan]

Is that Noiri in that video above?

 

[Deleted member 347815]

Is that Noiri in that video above?

Ya it is I believe.

 

[shinkyoku]

Great post as usual Shinkyoku, a couple questions that bother me. I see guys like in these two videos and other videos with a bunch of blackbelts who are fighting like MT fighters, MMA fighters etc yet I have no idea what the hell styles they represent or how they got their blackbelts.. like the bottom video, what the hell style is that??

The "K-2 Legend" video is from a Shinkarate tournament. Shinkarate is a amateur glove karate federation open to any style and school willing to compete with glove karate rules. Usually several kick&thaiboxers also compete in shinkarate tournaments. -usually they can be seen wearing white belts as they have no grade in karate. Glove karate is basically kyokushin rules but wearing boxing gloves and allowing punches to the head. Shinkarate is the largest but not the only sport federation for the glove karate sport in Japan.

I do not know what the guy in a read jacket trains (but he has a blackbelt, so he is not a kick or thaiboxer), but the winner is Masaaki Nori, and this win is what got him a shot in K-1 Max.
Noiri began as a kyokushin fighter from the Ohishi Dojo and competed at high level as a junior, but I at the time of this fight he trained at a small independent karate (kyokushin based but not kyokushin) dojo under the shinkarate organization umbrella. Now, he is a pro top level kickboxer in Glory WS, but he is still very much karate based.

The french pro-karate tournament is also not limited to one specific style.
The ruleset and organization was founded by kyokushin (or former kyokushin) guys, and most participant are based in styles related to, or inspired by, kyokushin.
I do know that several Shidokan karate (a kyokushin offshot) fighters are among the top.

 

[Deleted member 347815]

The "K-2 Legend" video is from a Shinkarate tournament. Shinkarate is a amateur glove karate federation open to any style and school willing to compete with glove karate rules. Usually several kick&thaiboxers also compete in shinkarate tournaments. -usually they can be seen wearing white belts as they have no grade in karate. Glove karate is basically kyokushin rules but wearing boxing gloves and allowing punches to the head. Shinkarate is the largest but not the only sport federation for the glove karate sport in Japan.

I do not know what the guy in a read jacket trains (but he has a blackbelt, so he is not a kick or thaiboxer), but the winner is Masaaki Nori, and this win is what got him a shot in K-1 Max.
Noiri began as a kyokushin fighter from the Ohishi Dojo and competed at high level as a junior, but I at the time of this fight he trained at a small independent karate (kyokushin based but not kyokushin) dojo under the shinkarate organization umbrella. Now, he is a pro top level kickboxer in Glory WS, but he is still very much karate based.

The french pro-karate tournament is also not limited to one specific style.
The ruleset and organization was founded by kyokushin (or former kyokushin) guys, and most participant are based in styles related to, or inspired by, kyokushin.
I do know that several Shidokan karate (a kyokushin offshot) fighters are among the top.

Great, thank you so much for the thorough response. I always just found it interesting, i'm sure some of these guys just throw on black belts and make their own style or whatever considering they clearly ARE black belt + level fighters. I know I wouldn't be entering a competition open to all styles as just a MT fighter, if anything i'd represent my own style under my own belt which i'm sure some of these guys must do. The pro-karate tournament looks very fun, and Shinkarate is an interesting umbrella org that I will look into.

 

[shinkyoku]

Here we have French Shidokan champion Matthias Charpentier fighting in Pro-karate.

I dont remember the opponents style, but it was a kyokushin based one.

Here we have him (briefly) fighting Makoto Uehara (another shidokan karate fighter, who has been known to fight in k-1) in the Shidokan glove karate championship.


Same guy. this time trad kyokushin rules. (and honestly, not the best fight ive seen)


One last one, just because it is a shame to only show bad fights with such a good fighter. Shidokan vs kempo. kyokushin rules.

 

[AngryPorto]

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/so-you-think-you-know-all-about-karate-2263005/index7.html

I know karate is very splintered and my experience isn't necessarily indicative of karate as a whole. All I can speak on is what I know. I probably also suffered a bit from the McDojo effect, even though my sensei is by no means a hack. I think he just didn't show me the whole spectrum early enough.

 

[Dr Guildo]

As a Shotokan purple belt, I wouldn't exchange training San Shin with Tamas Weber with any martial arts training at all in the world. Even with others saying there are more 'effective' combat sports (I personally disagree), you'd be getting 'creme de la creme' top level specific 'state of the art' Karate training from maybe the best outside Japan. Nothing compares to that 'priviledge'.

Boy I envy you.

Dan grades in karate are pretty subjective. You cannot compare grades from one style with the same grade in another style. They do not follow the same standard.
Also, no matter which style or organization, at higher grades it becomes more political than skill based.

Since you are talking about Weber -who has a dojo in Stockholm, and a kyokushin dojo headed by a 7th Dan. I assume they you are talking about Stockholms kyokushin, headed by Shihan Brian Fitkin (affiliated to shinkyokushin).
Shihan Fitkin is a pretty competition driven instructor of the old school. Second to none. World famous fighter back in the 70ies.
Very much into knockdown and full power fighting.

This is the type of karate he teaches. (Fitkin is seen as a referee in the background in some fights)

Very interesting. As you figured out i live in Stockholm, and those 2 dojos are alternatives for me.

Got real inspired now. Maybe ill join that Tamas Weber dojo, it seems nice. Altho Stockholm Kyokushin with Brian Fitkin also seems nice, much because its more competition-minded.

Really appreciate all posts in this thread. Very inspiring and good information.

 

[bowlie]

Both are good systems. I prefer Muay Thai but thats personal preference. It depends on the quality of instruction in your area, and I will guess Muay thai is better quality. Also, good karate gyms arent the ones that do comps because the point scoring comp style isnt really applicable to real fighting. The good gyms are generally the ones that do alot of bunkai drills like Iain Abernethy because they focus on fighting not point scoring. The downside is they do alot of kata that I dont like.

 

[MightySparrow]

Im 25 years old and wanting to start practicing Karate or Muay Thai. My ambition is to get good at it and maybe start competing at some level. I will go into it with quite much ambition and train as much as possible. I want to become as secure as possible and knowing i could defend myself if anything would happen. Just the feeling knowing it (have never been in a fight so im no street fighter at all and dont want to be)

I am choosing between Muay Thai and Karate (preferable Kyokushin but its not a must)

Someone who have experience training in both these styles? I would be very glad to hear the difference in training sessions and what you feel gave you the most of these two styles.

One thing i like about Karate is that it seems to strengthen you mentally very much but am a bit afraid its TOO much with breathing, Katas, discipline (but maybe thats just good?) etc.

There are many clubs of both Muay Thai and Karate, seems to be several different styles in the Karate-dojos around and would also appreciate some info on different styles.

Would really appreciate your thoughts and experiences from training in these styles.

(sry bad English, am Swedish)

I'm primarily a boxer, so take my word for what it's worth. Anyway:

I think you'd be better off with Muay Thai, especially if applicable self defense is your primary objective.

Never trained it myself, but word of mouth has it that you'll get all the full-contact sparring you'd ever wish for, plus you'll train realistic striking techniques in all possible ranges. Though I personally love boxing, I can understand why it's rather MT that has become the bread-and-butter striking component of MMA. It pretty much gives you all you need if you want to become a tough well-rounded striker.

As for Karate: I got an orange belt in some style, whatever its name was, when I was like 15. I soon quit because it simply was not what I was looking for. I wanted to fight, but people got angry when I in "sparring" threw jabs (!) to their body, they insisted on spending hours on Kata, and were generally more preoccupied with gaining belts than drilling self defense or preparing for tournaments.

Now, of all the karate styles, Kyokushin is widely supposed to be the best and by far the toughest. I'm reasonably sure that your typical Kyokushin dojo will be nothing like what I described above. There is just one major flaw if you want to train for self defense, and that flaw alone makes me recommend MT instead: In Kyokushin you don't punch to the head. But in an actual (unarmed) assault situation, guess what most baddies will do? And guess what you are most naturally inclined to do if you resist "the freeze" and manage to strike back at all? You'll all swing for the head.

As for mental strength, I really believe that it's something that comes from your general life experience rather than something that you train in some specific environment. So for example, if you want to verbally disencourage someone who tries to bully you, I sincerely think that (in addition to solid fighting experience) stuff such as being in a loving relationship, having a firm idea about who you are and where you're heading in life, and being proud about your career, is what will help you most. As for "sporty" activities that actually boost mental strength, I'd most definitely recommend yoga. It does help your focus and takes away some stress. I think maybe you could combine that with Muay Thai?

 

[Azam]

Lots of misinformation here about karate & Kyokushin.

TS - it's totally your own choice - you can make either Karate or Muay Thai work for you - depends what your goals are & what preference or style of fighting you like.

As for those saying Kyokushin is redundant because it neglects face punching IN COMPETITION - note the caps IN COMPETITION - your taught face punching in every dojo - under it's sport format knockdown karate - there is no face punching to head for obvious reasons.

Also for those guys saying in self defence situations that would be a flaw, so would not conditioning your knuckles - by all means try & punch someone in the face, without having done any - old school bareknuckle boxers for that reason focused punching to the solar plexus & liver because it KO's - as you can put more force into your punches - something YOU CAN'T DO when your punching someone to the face/head unless you want to break your hands.

Also many people don't know how to deal with bareknuckle body shots - and with the bareknuckle impact especially to the body - it makes a huge difference - a lot easier to take out - look at Bas Rutten's use of it. Also Karate & Kyokushin has open hand strikes....which are practised frequently in kihon along with the most practised kick in all karate styles in kihon - a kick to the balls.


This is why I say it's a matter of preference - you can't give a substantiated view if you have barely or no experience in Karate - for precisely that reason I can't give you an opinion on muay thai because I've never studied it - although I watch a tonne of muay thai fights.


If you want to study a karate style I'd recommend either Shotokan, Goju, Kyokushin or enshin....I'd also recommend uechi-ryu but some dojos focus too much on kata for my liking.



Karate has everything in the stand up department in my opinion except for clinching but it makes up for this in throws, trips & sweeps all of which all karate styles have in abundance.

 

[SAAMAG]

Well...you guys know my vote. I vote Ninjutsu.

 

[MightySparrow]

Lots of misinformation here about karate & Kyokushin.

TS - it's totally your own choice - you can make either Karate or Muay Thai work for you - depends what your goals are & what preference or style of fighting you like.

As for those saying Kyokushin is redundant because it neglects face punching IN COMPETITION - note the caps IN COMPETITION - your taught face punching in every dojo - under it's sport format knockdown karate - there is no face punching to head for obvious reasons.

Also for those guys saying in self defence situations that would be a flaw, so would not conditioning your knuckles - by all means try & punch someone in the face, without having done any - old school bareknuckle boxers for that reason focused punching to the solar plexus & liver because it KO's - as you can put more force into your punches - something YOU CAN'T DO when your punching someone to the face/head unless you want to break your hands.

Also many people don't know how to deal with bareknuckle body shots - and with the bareknuckle impact especially to the body - it makes a huge difference - a lot easier to take out - look at Bas Rutten's use of it. Also Karate & Kyokushin has open hand strikes....which are practised frequently in kihon along with the most practised kick in all karate styles in kihon - a kick to the balls.


This is why I say it's a matter of preference - you can't give a substantiated view if you have barely or no experience in Karate - for precisely that reason I can't give you an opinion on muay thai because I've never studied it - although I watch a tonne of muay thai fights.


If you want to study a karate style I'd recommend either Shotokan, Goju, Kyokushin or enshin....I'd also recommend uechi-ryu but some dojos focus too much on kata for my liking.



Karate has everything in the stand up department in my opinion except for clinching but it makes up for this in throws, trips & sweeps all of which all karate styles have in abundance.

@Azam: Though I certainly don't want to discredit the experiences you might have been through, I would like to ask the following:

1. Have you ever damaged your knuckles by punching someone's face? I'm not talking about my own experiences, but let's say I saw someone else pull off a pretty fight-ending move by doing just that -- without having to see a doctor afterwards.

2. You stress "COMPETITION" but have you ever had a leisurely fight with a Kyokushin guy? I have, and regardless of what you imply between the lines, their head punches plus their defenses towards head punches suck like a blowfish out of water, even when I -- a boxer -- get to set the rules.

3. When it comes to karate, it seems to me that you would recommend Kyokushinkai, Shotokan... or anything else that TS might fancy. Right? But honestly, why would you say such a thing? Where did you last see a shotokan master beat a kyokushinkai master? If there is anything practicably useful to learn from karate's ways and means, then I believe that kyokushin already got the gist of it.

4. You imply that karate is limited in terms of clinches and ground fighting. Of course so is Muay Thai, not to mention my beloved boxing. But then again, that's why I cross-train in judo...

 

[Azam]

@Azam: Though I certainly don't want to discredit the experiences you might have been through, I would like to ask the following:

1. Have you ever damaged your knuckles by punching someone's face? I'm not talking about my own experiences, but let's say I saw someone else pull off a pretty fight-ending move by doing just that -- without having to see a doctor afterwards.

First fight I ever had in my life & not of my own doing - I didn't understand that strong hands are important - punched someone full force repeatedly - didn't feel anything for the first couple of minutes, he didn't go down then it hurt - but for the next few days my hands were stiff & in pain, couldn't use them for days after.

Once adrenaline wears off, you feel it & in cases where the guy you're fighting doesn't go down right away - it's not so smart - I'd rather not leave stuff to chance.

2. You stress "COMPETITION" but have you ever had a leisurely fight with a Kyokushin guy? I have, and regardless of what you imply between the lines, their head punches plus their defenses towards head punches suck like a blowfish out of water, even when I -- a boxer -- get to set the rules.

I thought it was obvious in my post lol that I am a Kyokushin guy....so I frequently spar with KK guys & Muay Thai guys at our gym - although I haven't been sparring in a while since my knee injury. Yes head defence & punching may not be great - but Kyokushin is a bareknuckle art - KK guys & boxing gloves don't go well - I can tell you that from experience, till today I don't use them - many KK guys have this experience - it's because defence changes drastically - people who do fight bare knuckle will pick up on it - those that don't aren't any the wiser --- also I wouldn't be surprised if a boxer like you finds that defences suck since KK is not an art of only the hands - generally experiences will differ from dojo to dojo with KK - for example most KK dojos in London spar kickboxing & knockdown ruleset - this is for IKO1, IFK, Kyokushin Union etc etc - this might not be the same in a dojo in another part of the country - if a dojo focuses solely on knockdown then I wouldn't be surprised if they suffered with head punches/defence.

3. When it comes to karate, it seems to me that you would recommend Kyokushinkai, Shotokan... or anything else that TS might fancy. Right? But honestly, why would you say such a thing? Where did you last see a shotokan master beat a kyokushinkai master? If there is anything practicably useful to learn from karate's ways and means, then I believe that kyokushin already got the gist of it.

I think that's a bit of a definitive statement to make - I'm a Kyokushin karateka through & through but personally I don't think any style of karate is greater than the other & I'd have no problem telling fellow KK karateka that I don't think it is the strongest karate - because I genuinely don't nor do I think KK has the complete gist of Karate. Shotokan has some really great stuff that I feel is neglected in mainstream KK - specifically pertaining to technical stuff on stances/transitions/posture etc etc - that is often not really focused on when it should be.

Uechi ryu is another style I greatly admire - specifically for the way they incorporate parrying which I feel is probably one of the most important things to learn as a karateka - take mawashi uke for example - it's non existent in KK application wise & not even really delved into & in sparring also probably because it involves grabbing- even though it's probably one of the most useful parries you could learn - old school kyokushin karateka focused a crapload more on open handed parries - today in KK - you rarely see open handed parrying even though it's in the syllabus - much of it is close fisted & also the way that countering is taught in styles like Uechi as an extension of parrying (much like in Goju & shotokan) you rarely see it taught to that depth or degree nowadays in KK - but it was prevalent back in the day.

Even look at the way sanchin kata is practised in goju or uechi ryu - nothing of the sort exists in Kyokushin - comparing it to the KK version - the KK one looks primitive at best.

And this comes from a guy, that literally has watched tons of KK & knockdown footage, read nearly every technical book for KK & in most cases has had to sift through tons of footage to gain technical scraps from great fighters that aren't really common knowledge - like most KK guys would tell you Narushima is probably one of the greatest high kickers in KK, but hardly many guys will know why this is or even what he's doing different to everyone else - in his own instructional he just touches the subject & stops at that ---- another would be Hiroki Kurosawa's low kick pound for pound hardest low kicker but most don't know why he kicks so hard (all about his posture) - this isn't just secluded to KK but to all Karate styles, I've done the same for Uechi ryu, Shotokan even more obsessively recently & to a lesser extent Goju - if Karate was a girl I'd be stalking her lool that's how obsessed I am with learning technical karate knowledge - and in the case of KK I know technically it isn't the strongest karate style - they all have areas they neglect although that might not always at times extend to fighters. What I'm trying to say is that it's come from a place of thought my stance on karate not just saying it for the hell of saying it.


I think to make such a definitive statement, you need to know what all Karate styles have to offer - shotokan has a lot to offer, so does goju & uechi etc.

4. You imply that karate is limited in terms of clinches and ground fighting. Of course so is Muay Thai, not to mention my beloved boxing. But then again, that's why I cross-train in judo...

I don't understand what you're implying here.....lol I study Judo for that very purpose as well.

 

[Harukaze]

I'll speak as someone who has good experience in both Muay Thai and Enshin Karate: Start with Muay Thai. You'll pick up basics and form effective fighting skill more quickly. When you feel comfortable with Muay Thai, THEN switch to/crosstrain in a knockdown karate style. All the kihon and kata work will finetune your Muay Thai foundation, and you'll find that everything improves (kicking power, footwork, hip range of motion, etc.). Starting with a knockdown style of karate with no prior striking experience might be too overwhelming; coming into it as a foundationally sound striker will allow you to understand and maximize the effective of karate techniques. For example, a striking novice will dismiss sanchin stance as a useless anachronism, but for someone with a striking base, it's not hard to understand the concept that being able to generate power effectively through your hips and core in sanchin translates to being able to maximize and squeeze out every last ounce of power in your standard fighting stance (i.e. you learn to continue your power generation until end range of motion). Indeed, you could possibly learn it in Muay Thai alone, but I find that few instructors these days are detail-oriented enough to point these sorts of things out; in karate, there's no avoiding it as it's a required part of the curriculum (that many may see as a waste of time if they don't understand the purpose of it).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ironwolf]

Karate sucks, Muay Thai is what you want.